Curse

Abedeus · Aug 18, 2008, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Okay, so in answer to screwed up AI, I have a suggestion.

Enable level 20 players (or just all players) to change AI settings for their heroes. For example:
1. Spam skills.
2. Spam skills if adrenaline.
3. Spam skills when skill Y is enabled.
4. Conserve energy and use on high-health enemies.
5. Prioritize casters/physicals.
6. Use skill when... *detailed, like "When at least 1..4 skills are recharging", for example for Reclaim Essence, or *When engaging enemies*

I've seen that already in other games. But AI there is BETTER... With this option, AI would FINALLY be decent for once.

Killed u man · Aug 18, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Or simple give players the option to MAKE their own AI. (As in a "coding language" for dummies)

A hero can have up to ,let's say, 1000 "lines" which define his AI. (Skill usage wise) Offcorse on TOP OF the basic current AI.

These lines consist out of 1 or more CONDITIONS, and 1 or more EFFECTS (using skills). Bare in mind that a system has to worked out so it actually works to a reasonable extend. (The example I'm giving is VERY rough) But this way, Anet can let the players themselves "code" their heroes.

Conditions will include (To be made by the devs) 1000's of "situations" a hero can be in.
E.G:

-If Hero is insert to atleast insert2 enemy (-ies), then: EFFECT.

//insert can be "adjecent", "nearby", "in the area", "within earshot" or "within radar range"
//insert2 can be ANY number (With a max of let's say 50 -gotta be reasonable here, it's unlikely he'll be surrounded with more than 50 enemies and still be alive

)

EFFECT can be the usage of a skill, or other "actions":

E.G:

-If Hero is Adjecent to atleast 1 enemy (-ies), then: Use Flame Burst.

and maybe add a -NOT- option- (for the opposite)

-If Hero is NOT In the Area to atleast 2 enemy (-ies), then: Don't cast spells. (This could work for a channeling Monk, to prevent him from casting with less than 2 foes in the Area)

This MAY sound complicated, but it's a really easy AND simple way for Anet to move the hard "coding" work to the players themselves...

AI-patches could be saved, and interchanged between players. (The AI file could go with the bar, as the "effects" will be skill triggers)

Offcorse, there goes alot of work in the initial set-up for the conditions and effects (There will need to be over 1000 conditions for the players to choose from, varying from "Hero next to enemy" to "hero below XX% health", etc...)

BUT once this is being made, players THEMSELVES can work on hero AI(And actually made reasonable Monk skill usage AI), and then post it on these forums.
(No more QQ Olias doesn't spam this enough, or QQ my talhkora prefers to keep minions alive rather than me)

In a game with over 500.000 players, 1 universal AI simply won't cut it, and there will always be people complaining:

A PvP'er (Hero Battler) will ALWAYS want cautious Hero AI, whilst in PvE it's more of a "Rush" approach. There simply is NO middle road, and thus there will always be people complaining about certain skillbars with heroes.

My idea could fix this, as people could simply "load" an AI template for whatever bar they wish, and the Hero will run it on full (player like) effectiveness...

Note:

Offcorse the system has got to be worked out more precisily, but the idea is solid, obvious stuff, such as:

The higher the AI-line in the list, the more priority it gets:
Simple example:

Line 1: If XX, then use Infuse Health
Line 2: If XX, then use Prot Spirit

If the "XX" condition is triggerd, then the Hero will FIRST cast Infuse Health, followed by Protective Spirit...

Dr.Jones · Aug 18, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

WALL OF TEXT.

worst idea ever this is more trouble then it would be worth.

daze · Aug 18, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Okay, so in answer to screwed up AI, I have a suggestion.

Enable level 20 players (or just all players) to change AI settings for their heroes. For example:
1. Spam skills.
2. Spam skills if adrenaline.
3. Spam skills when skill Y is enabled.
4. Conserve energy and use on high-health enemies.
5. Prioritize casters/physicals.
6. Use skill when... *detailed, like "When at least 1..4 skills are recharging", for example for Reclaim Essence, or *When engaging enemies*

I've seen that already in other games. But AI there is BETTER... With this option, AI would FINALLY be decent for once.

Great idea but this is more of an idea for GW2. Sounds like it may take some framework redoing. Although it would be awesome for current GW.
/SIGNED

daze · Aug 18, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

worst idea ever this is more trouble then it would be worth.

Hey, its not the worst idea! Did you see my thread about making Elite tomes customized?
But it is a lot more trouble than it is worth.
Lets just start with being able to set henchies to <AVOID><GUARD><ATTACK>
we can work on creating an Integrated neural net processor (Learning computer) in the NPCs at a later time. when machines rule the earth

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 18, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Brilliant idea, I 100% support it.

Furthermore I'd love to see this taken to an extreme in GW2 with fully-player-controlled AI for full hero parties; it would be kind of like Knights of the Old Republic, but better

/signed

SkekSister · Aug 18, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Laughs out loud.

Seriously you guys should try working in games dev and designing 'good' AI. It's extremely tough even for teams of experienced coders and designers.

In my experience the best AI is often based on the simplest principles. The more you try to insert micro-conditions and player managed behavior the more you end up with a convoluted mess of a system, inaccessible to even the people who wrote it in the first place.

If I never have to design an AI state machine again it will be too soon..

TheodenKing · Aug 18, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkekSister

Laughs out loud.

Seriously you guys should try working in games dev and designing 'good' AI. It's extremely tough even for teams of experienced coders and designers.

In my experience the best AI is often based on the simplest principles. The more you try to insert micro-conditions and player managed behavior the more you end up with a convoluted mess of a system, inaccessible to even the people who wrote it in the first place.

If I never have to design an AI state machine again it will be too soon..

What self-respecting programmer spells out "laughs out loud?"

I hear you, bro. It would be a mess. The original post has a good idea though, providing it can be kept relatively simple, say, for example:

1) allowing you to set a "spam" or "maintain" setting on a skill in the same manner you disable a skill, and
2) letting the player choose target priority from a very small list ("follow my target," or "casters first," or "defend yourself," etc.)

Yes, there would be some significant code there, but it appears the framework is there. Whether or not it is worth the effort is another story.

Abedeus · Aug 18, 2008, 01:41 PM // 13:41

There is already such thing in Ragnarok Online. Alchemists can command their ,,pet'' using 3rd party program (but if they are advanced enough, they can script by themselves - that program just makes it easier for non-technical people). They have there things like "Monster XXX - ignore, Monster YYY attack, Monster ZZZ attack even unprovoked" and a scale 1-5 how vicious they should be. 1 means they rarely use skills, only to heal themselves and 5 means spamming the hell out till monster is dead/they run out of energy.

And there are things like ,,Attack on sight", "Always protect player", "Use support skills on Player" and more options. It's not complicated and it would be as easy to use as build generator on Pvxwiki. Enter instructions, receive template and load it.

MirkoTeran · Aug 18, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

I believe its to late for GW, but some kind of scripting language for heroes would be very welcome addition to GW2. As it was already stated, a single AI will have hard time running all possible builds the way you want them. Giving players more control over it will help this a bit. But like in all things, there are down-sides to consider (easy creation of bots, casual players at disadvantage,...).

MrGuildBoi · Aug 18, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

/signed for OP.

Has anyone heard of Throne of Darkness? It's such an old game and even they have a 'tactics editor'. You can change they formation and their roles and what they do. And if they implement Advanced AI Controls in GW, maybe they can use the same code for GW2 and change it a little.

Smurf Minions · Aug 18, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

/signed on killed u man
It's not that hard to make something like that, it just takes a bunch of time which anet doesn't have, so it will not be in gw1 within 10 years.

Bloodseeker · Aug 18, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

i was thinking about the same thing as killed you man, it shouldn't be that hard, but still it would never happen in GW1 since it's Anet we're talking about. /signed though.

SkekSister · Aug 19, 2008, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

What self-respecting programmer spells out "laughs out loud?"

I hear you, bro. It would be a mess. The original post has a good idea though, providing it can be kept relatively simple, say, for example:

1) allowing you to set a "spam" or "maintain" setting on a skill in the same manner you disable a skill, and
2) letting the player choose target priority from a very small list ("follow my target," or "casters first," or "defend yourself," etc.)

Yes, there would be some significant code there, but it appears the framework is there. Whether or not it is worth the effort is another story.

I should imagine at this point that pretty much all development on GW1 has stopped, the monthly updates are probably a couple of junior coders working on maintainance and housekeeping with one designer providing them with a monthly list of balancing tweaks to impliment.

In terms of this AI editor, you are right in so far as this will never get added to GW1, a change liike this is simply uneconomical for the developer, it would require design, implimentation, and plenty of QA before it could be put in. This would certainly amount to a large chunk of cash, which as a business you simply could not justify on a game that has well past its peak from a profitability point of view.

I do however agree that a framework for lua, python, java or a bespoke user editable hero AI system would be a nice addition to the game. However from the point of view of NCSoft it would come down to numbers:

How many additional people would buy our game if we added this feature?
How much would it cost to impliment?

You can probably guess the answer.

Passion for the game under development is held within the dev team, the people who pay _them_ and make the calls what goes in and what does not, are in my experience, only really concerned with running the business and making it profitable.

zwei2stein · Aug 19, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

worst idea ever this is more trouble then it would be worth.

Why?

Baldur's Gate series games enables player to:

a) Choose AI for each party member from presets.
b) Write your own AI - which was incedible fun (at least for me).

I can see some "wizzard" to help players customize ai without any coding skills required.

Don Doggy · Aug 19, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

/signed
Great idea but like most things unlikely to be added to GW1.

birdfoot · Aug 19, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

@ OP:

I think it's a great idea to better control over AI behaviour. However, I reckon the reason that ANet had made the control over AI over-simplistic was because they didn't want it too complicated (which I interpret as too difficult, time-consuming and not worth the while to implement). Otherwise, they are just plain short-sighted. :P

Anyway, verdict for me is:

/signed

Bryant Again · Aug 19, 2008, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Behavioral customization as seen in Baldur's Gate, or the more familiar FF12?

Sure, why not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Furthermore I'd love to see this taken to an extreme in GW2 with fully-player-controlled AI for full hero parties; it would be kind of like Knights of the Old Republic, but better

ANet has been pretty specific and stern on keeping GW2 on the MMO treads, unfortunately.